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	<title>Comments on: Boring Art, Boring Debates</title>
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	<link>http://redkingsdream.com/2009/10/boring-art-boring-debates/</link>
	<description>reflective musings and retrospective mutterings</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:47:14 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: A beginner’s guide to game genres &#124; RedKingsDream</title>
		<link>http://redkingsdream.com/2009/10/boring-art-boring-debates/comment-page-1/#comment-172</link>
		<dc:creator>A beginner’s guide to game genres &#124; RedKingsDream</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:26:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redkingsdream.com/?p=20#comment-172</guid>
		<description>[...] content with arguing about whether games can be art, many gamers demand clarity on exactly which games are art and which aren’t. Needless to say, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] content with arguing about whether games can be art, many gamers demand clarity on exactly which games are art and which aren’t. Needless to say, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Golding</title>
		<link>http://redkingsdream.com/2009/10/boring-art-boring-debates/comment-page-1/#comment-17</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Golding</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 01:03:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redkingsdream.com/?p=20#comment-17</guid>
		<description>Hi Leigh, thanks for dropping by and commenting. It&#039;s really interesting to hear your perspective on things, considering I was imagining it for you in the article.

Actually I think the distinction you make of incomprehension is pretty insightful. To me, that fits with what I&#039;m saying in this article more than if you were getting the cold shoulder from everyone. It shows that people are ready to accept games as entertainment, as just being there without being a problem, but not as being worthy of further study or deeper interest. Their preconception is not that games are somehow immoral and a bad influence, as it might have been a decade ago, but that games are superfluous and unimportant. 

I wonder what age group these people are? I&#039;d imagine that it&#039;d be spread, but I&#039;d also wager that a fair few of them fall into the bracket that is supposed to have grown up with games: the demographic that we take for granted when we&#039;re talking about &#039;games as art&#039;, or &#039;getting games accepted&#039; or whatever variant on that. I know from my own personal experience, plenty of people my own age are incapable of understanding why anyone would want to write about games, or critique them, or study them. I&#039;m halfway through my second videogames-related thesis and I still don&#039;t know how to answer the &quot;what are you writing on&quot; question at parties. As you say, how do you explain that to people who don&#039;t even understand the idea of an internet culture?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Leigh, thanks for dropping by and commenting. It&#8217;s really interesting to hear your perspective on things, considering I was imagining it for you in the article.</p>
<p>Actually I think the distinction you make of incomprehension is pretty insightful. To me, that fits with what I&#8217;m saying in this article more than if you were getting the cold shoulder from everyone. It shows that people are ready to accept games as entertainment, as just being there without being a problem, but not as being worthy of further study or deeper interest. Their preconception is not that games are somehow immoral and a bad influence, as it might have been a decade ago, but that games are superfluous and unimportant. </p>
<p>I wonder what age group these people are? I&#8217;d imagine that it&#8217;d be spread, but I&#8217;d also wager that a fair few of them fall into the bracket that is supposed to have grown up with games: the demographic that we take for granted when we&#8217;re talking about &#8216;games as art&#8217;, or &#8216;getting games accepted&#8217; or whatever variant on that. I know from my own personal experience, plenty of people my own age are incapable of understanding why anyone would want to write about games, or critique them, or study them. I&#8217;m halfway through my second videogames-related thesis and I still don&#8217;t know how to answer the &#8220;what are you writing on&#8221; question at parties. As you say, how do you explain that to people who don&#8217;t even understand the idea of an internet culture?</p>
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		<title>By: Leigh</title>
		<link>http://redkingsdream.com/2009/10/boring-art-boring-debates/comment-page-1/#comment-16</link>
		<dc:creator>Leigh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Oct 2009 00:09:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redkingsdream.com/?p=20#comment-16</guid>
		<description>Men love my profession, even if they&#039;re not gamers, and people I know think my relative success is cool. Even those who don&#039;t exactly know what I do are somehow impressed when their coworkers are familiar with my work, or that they get a lot of results when they google me, or that my company flies me places a few times a year.

The cold-shoulder-after-small-talk thing usually comes from other women I&#039;m trying to make friends with. 

More common than rejection, though, is incomprehension -- fewer people than you&#039;d think even understand the idea of covering games as a business (the financial strategies of publishers, interviews with developers, etc), let alone as a medium worthy of criticism.

However, I do see the latter one changing. Maybe they&#039;re just trying to be polite, but when I talk about game crit people seem to &quot;get it,&quot; even if they just say &quot;yeah man, wow, games are so complicated now, like movies.&quot;

Actually, the thing that seems to confuse people the most is that I work online from home. Funnily enough, that&#039;s the bit that requires the most explanation.

But yeah. Trying to talk about games writing in the real world will always keep any delusions of grandeur (ha) in check.

I dunno that I&#039;m so much ashamed as it is I just get tired of trying to explain it to people to whom even the idea of internet culture is enormously foreign. Short answer: &quot;I&#039;m a journalist.&quot; Midlength answer: &quot;I&#039;m a tech journalist.&quot; Longest answer: &quot;You know what Variety does for Hollywood? Like, covers it as a business? That&#039;s what I do, only with the video game industry.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Men love my profession, even if they&#8217;re not gamers, and people I know think my relative success is cool. Even those who don&#8217;t exactly know what I do are somehow impressed when their coworkers are familiar with my work, or that they get a lot of results when they google me, or that my company flies me places a few times a year.</p>
<p>The cold-shoulder-after-small-talk thing usually comes from other women I&#8217;m trying to make friends with. </p>
<p>More common than rejection, though, is incomprehension &#8212; fewer people than you&#8217;d think even understand the idea of covering games as a business (the financial strategies of publishers, interviews with developers, etc), let alone as a medium worthy of criticism.</p>
<p>However, I do see the latter one changing. Maybe they&#8217;re just trying to be polite, but when I talk about game crit people seem to &#8220;get it,&#8221; even if they just say &#8220;yeah man, wow, games are so complicated now, like movies.&#8221;</p>
<p>Actually, the thing that seems to confuse people the most is that I work online from home. Funnily enough, that&#8217;s the bit that requires the most explanation.</p>
<p>But yeah. Trying to talk about games writing in the real world will always keep any delusions of grandeur (ha) in check.</p>
<p>I dunno that I&#8217;m so much ashamed as it is I just get tired of trying to explain it to people to whom even the idea of internet culture is enormously foreign. Short answer: &#8220;I&#8217;m a journalist.&#8221; Midlength answer: &#8220;I&#8217;m a tech journalist.&#8221; Longest answer: &#8220;You know what Variety does for Hollywood? Like, covers it as a business? That&#8217;s what I do, only with the video game industry.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Another update &#171; Subject Navigator</title>
		<link>http://redkingsdream.com/2009/10/boring-art-boring-debates/comment-page-1/#comment-14</link>
		<dc:creator>Another update &#171; Subject Navigator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 23:35:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redkingsdream.com/?p=20#comment-14</guid>
		<description>[...] Another&#160;update  Jump to Comments  For those of you who are sick of Subject Navigator simply being about boring updates these days, I apologise. The good news is that I&#8217;ve started writing about games again. Over at RedKingsDream, I&#8217;ve started a collaboration with three other Australian videogames writers. We all know each other well and know we can feed off each other nicely, thanks to our previous work at PALGN and the podcast there. I&#8217;m really looking forward to what we&#8217;re going to create there, and I hope you pop on over. My first article can be found here. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Another&nbsp;update  Jump to Comments  For those of you who are sick of Subject Navigator simply being about boring updates these days, I apologise. The good news is that I&#8217;ve started writing about games again. Over at RedKingsDream, I&#8217;ve started a collaboration with three other Australian videogames writers. We all know each other well and know we can feed off each other nicely, thanks to our previous work at PALGN and the podcast there. I&#8217;m really looking forward to what we&#8217;re going to create there, and I hope you pop on over. My first article can be found here. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Fraser</title>
		<link>http://redkingsdream.com/2009/10/boring-art-boring-debates/comment-page-1/#comment-10</link>
		<dc:creator>Fraser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 11:06:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redkingsdream.com/?p=20#comment-10</guid>
		<description>Good point. I tend to focus on the Roger Eberts and Michael Atkinsons - people who didn&#039;t grow up with games - and perhaps overlook the people who did grow up with games but dismiss them anyway. So many serious articles about games have a comments thread full of &quot;lol who cares its just a game&quot;.

Here&#039;s to boring them into submission!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point. I tend to focus on the Roger Eberts and Michael Atkinsons &#8211; people who didn&#8217;t grow up with games &#8211; and perhaps overlook the people who did grow up with games but dismiss them anyway. So many serious articles about games have a comments thread full of &#8220;lol who cares its just a game&#8221;.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s to boring them into submission!</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Golding</title>
		<link>http://redkingsdream.com/2009/10/boring-art-boring-debates/comment-page-1/#comment-9</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Golding</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 09:04:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redkingsdream.com/?p=20#comment-9</guid>
		<description>Hi Fraser! Good to &#039;see&#039; you again. I saw your &#039;Your Turn&#039; article a while ago; nice work.

Funny you should mention racism given the nature of an upcoming article. Stay tuned.

I agree that a major reason people don&#039;t take games seriously is because they&#039;ve never played one. But I also think, as I say in the article, that a lot of people play games and don&#039;t take them seriously just because they automatically lump them in as &#039;an entertainment&#039;. That&#039;s why we need to keep talking about them in a serious fashion, and there is no more direct way than the &#039;art&#039; debate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Fraser! Good to &#8217;see&#8217; you again. I saw your &#8216;Your Turn&#8217; article a while ago; nice work.</p>
<p>Funny you should mention racism given the nature of an upcoming article. Stay tuned.</p>
<p>I agree that a major reason people don&#8217;t take games seriously is because they&#8217;ve never played one. But I also think, as I say in the article, that a lot of people play games and don&#8217;t take them seriously just because they automatically lump them in as &#8216;an entertainment&#8217;. That&#8217;s why we need to keep talking about them in a serious fashion, and there is no more direct way than the &#8216;art&#8217; debate.</p>
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		<title>By: Fraser</title>
		<link>http://redkingsdream.com/2009/10/boring-art-boring-debates/comment-page-1/#comment-8</link>
		<dc:creator>Fraser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 08:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redkingsdream.com/?p=20#comment-8</guid>
		<description>Labels are always problematic. Just as racism doesn&#039;t disappear when the n-word is banned, so people will continue to judge games based on what they think about them, not what they&#039;re called. When people get used to games as an important medium, the word won&#039;t have the same stigma. Words are subjective.

The reason it&#039;s so hard to sell a lot of people on the idea that games are worthy art, I think, is that they&#039;ve never experienced it. They might have played a great game, but if it didn&#039;t make them feel something deeply, they can&#039;t see why it should be called art. A lot of older people may never be able to get this feeling from a game, but generations change.

The word art isn&#039;t very useful, because it can have such broad or specific meanings. What we want is for games to be taken seriously. That will happen over time, whether we debate it or not, although having the argument could certainly help hurry the process along a bit.

(By the way: hi, Dan! We met the other week at the pub with Harry, in case the RMIT URL didn&#039;t give me away.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Labels are always problematic. Just as racism doesn&#8217;t disappear when the n-word is banned, so people will continue to judge games based on what they think about them, not what they&#8217;re called. When people get used to games as an important medium, the word won&#8217;t have the same stigma. Words are subjective.</p>
<p>The reason it&#8217;s so hard to sell a lot of people on the idea that games are worthy art, I think, is that they&#8217;ve never experienced it. They might have played a great game, but if it didn&#8217;t make them feel something deeply, they can&#8217;t see why it should be called art. A lot of older people may never be able to get this feeling from a game, but generations change.</p>
<p>The word art isn&#8217;t very useful, because it can have such broad or specific meanings. What we want is for games to be taken seriously. That will happen over time, whether we debate it or not, although having the argument could certainly help hurry the process along a bit.</p>
<p>(By the way: hi, Dan! We met the other week at the pub with Harry, in case the RMIT URL didn&#8217;t give me away.)</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Golding</title>
		<link>http://redkingsdream.com/2009/10/boring-art-boring-debates/comment-page-1/#comment-5</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Golding</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 07:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redkingsdream.com/?p=20#comment-5</guid>
		<description>Perhaps, but I&#039;ve always found alternate titles to be a little dishonest. They hide what videogames are; &#039;interactive entertainment&#039;, &#039;digital fiction&#039;, yuck. I use the term &#039;videogames&#039; consciously as one word because to me it signifies a new word for a new medium, as technically the word &#039;video&#039; no longer applies anyway.

Maybe you&#039;re right, but I&#039;m yet to hear a word I like, and I&#039;m not sure that at this point, any word will catch on.

Maybe the word &#039;game&#039; will simply evolve a new context as the years go by?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps, but I&#8217;ve always found alternate titles to be a little dishonest. They hide what videogames are; &#8216;interactive entertainment&#8217;, &#8216;digital fiction&#8217;, yuck. I use the term &#8216;videogames&#8217; consciously as one word because to me it signifies a new word for a new medium, as technically the word &#8216;video&#8217; no longer applies anyway.</p>
<p>Maybe you&#8217;re right, but I&#8217;m yet to hear a word I like, and I&#8217;m not sure that at this point, any word will catch on.</p>
<p>Maybe the word &#8216;game&#8217; will simply evolve a new context as the years go by?</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Purvis</title>
		<link>http://redkingsdream.com/2009/10/boring-art-boring-debates/comment-page-1/#comment-4</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Purvis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 07:15:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redkingsdream.com/?p=20#comment-4</guid>
		<description>Art as more serious? You mean like the difference between Movie and Film? Maybe people need to stop using the word &quot;game&quot; for what they want taken seriously, then. Game, irregardless of whether it&#039;s board, card, D&amp;D or digital, will most likely always be associated with less serious fare. Sports wouldn&#039;t be taken as seriously if they were called &quot;games&quot;, I don&#039;t think. Maybe a new word needs proliferating to differentiate the difference between mere &quot;games&quot;, such as the big action titles, and the &quot;more serious&quot; ones of which you speak.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Art as more serious? You mean like the difference between Movie and Film? Maybe people need to stop using the word &#8220;game&#8221; for what they want taken seriously, then. Game, irregardless of whether it&#8217;s board, card, D&amp;D or digital, will most likely always be associated with less serious fare. Sports wouldn&#8217;t be taken as seriously if they were called &#8220;games&#8221;, I don&#8217;t think. Maybe a new word needs proliferating to differentiate the difference between mere &#8220;games&#8221;, such as the big action titles, and the &#8220;more serious&#8221; ones of which you speak.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Golding</title>
		<link>http://redkingsdream.com/2009/10/boring-art-boring-debates/comment-page-1/#comment-3</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Golding</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Oct 2009 07:09:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://redkingsdream.com/?p=20#comment-3</guid>
		<description>Yeah, that&#039;s definitely an opinion I can sympathise with. Art is definitely a label with certain connotations and perhaps less meaning than ever. What is canonically known as &#039;art&#039; almost certainly has less to do with real, normal people than many other &#039;entertainments&#039;. &#039;Art&#039; in its strictest sense to many would only mean &#039;visual art&#039;, or more &#039;visual art painted by a dead white male&#039;.

But, to a certain extent that&#039;s not what I&#039;m talking about. I&#039;m talking about the other connotations that &#039;art&#039; brings; the &#039;serious medium&#039; connotations that for most people apply not just to visual art but to literature, poetry, some cinema, and most music. The type of &#039;art&#039; that gets people talking, creates a vibrant cultural atmosphere and even gets governments and funding bodies interested.

Thanks for the first comment, Dan! A thought-provoking one too!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, that&#8217;s definitely an opinion I can sympathise with. Art is definitely a label with certain connotations and perhaps less meaning than ever. What is canonically known as &#8216;art&#8217; almost certainly has less to do with real, normal people than many other &#8216;entertainments&#8217;. &#8216;Art&#8217; in its strictest sense to many would only mean &#8216;visual art&#8217;, or more &#8216;visual art painted by a dead white male&#8217;.</p>
<p>But, to a certain extent that&#8217;s not what I&#8217;m talking about. I&#8217;m talking about the other connotations that &#8216;art&#8217; brings; the &#8217;serious medium&#8217; connotations that for most people apply not just to visual art but to literature, poetry, some cinema, and most music. The type of &#8216;art&#8217; that gets people talking, creates a vibrant cultural atmosphere and even gets governments and funding bodies interested.</p>
<p>Thanks for the first comment, Dan! A thought-provoking one too!</p>
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